JohnRich 4 #1 December 16, 2007 News:GUN VICTIMS TREBLE THE number of people hurt or killed in firearms incidents in London rose to a record high of 1,221 last year, it has emerged. Home Secretary John Reid admitted the figure has more than trebled since Tony Blair came to power in 1997, when 401 people in the capital were shot. The new toll includes 38 deaths. Last night, the increase sparked demands for action. Liberal Democrat home affairs spokeswoman Lynne Featherstone said: "Many of these guns are being shipped in illegally from overseas.Source: Sunday Mirror According to kallend, those Brits must not be storing their firearms responsibly, or otherwise these thugs wouldn't be getting their hands on guns. Um, no, wait, the citizens of England are not allowed to have handguns any more. So that would mean that, even though there aren't any unsafely stored firearms in citizen's homes, that the criminals are still finding ways to get guns anyway! And that, in turn, would mean that oppressive home gun storage requirements are going to be ineffective at stopping criminals from getting guns. Say it ain't so! Even on an island nation, with an almost total gun ban, gun crime victims still tripled over the last 10 years in their capital city. Hey, I've got an idea: Maybe it's not the presence of guns that causes gun crime. Maybe it's the presence of... criminals! Perhaps they should try locking the criminals up with long sentences, instead of confiscating guns from the law-abiding. That's just a crazy little idea of mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #2 December 16, 2007 How many shot in Houston? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #3 December 16, 2007 QuoteHow many shot in Houston? Not the point now is it!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #4 December 16, 2007 QuoteQuoteHow many shot in Houston? Not the point now is it! Oh, but the Brits get so offended when someone points out that their gun laws don't work. So the only response they can make is one like that. And it implies, of course, that as long as their gunshot rate isn't as bad as Houston, then all is still good in London. In other words, they'll just stick their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich, and ignore the fact that their gun ban is ineffective, and gun crime is skyrocketing. The fact that gunshot victims tripled in just 10 years is not a big deal - not to worry! As long as there is someplace in America that is worse, then they don't care! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #5 December 16, 2007 Quote Quote Quote How many shot in Houston? Not the point now is it! Oh, but the Brits get so offended when someone points out that their gun laws don't work. So the only response they can make is one like that. And it implies, of course, that as long as their gunshot rate isn't as bad as Houston, then all is still good in London. In other words, they'll just stick their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich, and ignore the fact that their gun ban is ineffective, and gun crime is skyrocketing. The fact that gunshot victims tripled in just 10 years is not a big deal - not to worry! As long as there is someplace in America that is worse, then they don't care! Isnt that what I said?I know, I am being a smart ass"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #6 December 16, 2007 Another UK crime post from JR. Time to put the parrot avatar up again, Mr. Rich. How's Dallas doing with homicides? ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #7 December 16, 2007 Quote Another UK crime post from JR. Time to put the parrot avatar up again, Mr. Rich. How's Dallas doing with homicides? Just as predictedIrrelevant, but predicted"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #8 December 16, 2007 Quote Another UK crime post from JR. Time to put the parrot avatar up again, Mr. Rich. How's Dallas doing with homicides? Ah but Dallas has gun laws that work, so no one gets shot there...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #9 December 16, 2007 I dont know, but wouldn't mind betting that the majority of the GSW victims and perps' are on the fringes of society - and so arming Mr & Mrs Average probably wont solve anything and would more likely worsten the stats.. You see, I do not know many people that I would trust with a gun!! Youe see, we're not a gun savvy country and in the main don't want or need to be. The current numbers are fairly bad-ish, but when compared to what they could be if more people were armed - I shudder to think. I do not want or feel the need to own a gun [full stop] (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #10 December 16, 2007 The UK Home Office (whatever that is) defines "firearm offences" as if they "are fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person or used in a threat". See: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf 2005/06 "firearm offences" (ALL England) = 5001 2005/06 firearm homicides (ALL England) = 50 For 2006/07: "According to provisional Home Office figures, there were 58 firearms-related homicides [ALL England] in 2006-07 compared with 49 in the previous year. That is an increase of 18% in just one year. If we include airguns, the number of homicides in 2006-07 rises to 61. There were 413 firearms incidents that resulted in serious injury - more than one a day." ----------------------------------------- Sounds like the UK media is just freaking out about nothing. ----------------------------------------- "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #11 December 16, 2007 Quote Quote Another UK crime post from JR. Time to put the parrot avatar up again, Mr. Rich. How's Dallas doing with homicides? Just as predicted Predicting that someone will pick up on a stupid post does not immunize the original stupidity from criticism, nor make the original stupidity any the less.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #12 December 17, 2007 QuoteHow many shot in Houston? "After Katrina, Houston's murder rate increased 70 percent in November and December 2005 compared to levels in 2004. The city recorded 336 murders in 2005, compared to 272 in 2004. Houston's homicide rate per 100,000 residents increased from 16.33 in 2005 to 17.24 in 2006. The number of murders in the city increased to 379 in 2006, although this increase was smaller than in 2005" From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston,_Texas#Government_and_politics "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #13 December 17, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Another UK crime post from JR. Time to put the parrot avatar up again, Mr. Rich. How's Dallas doing with homicides? Just as predicted Predicting that someone will pick up on a stupid post does not immunize the original stupidity from criticism, nor make the original stupidity any the less. I know!!!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #14 December 17, 2007 Quote The UK Home Office (whatever that is) defines "firearm offences" as if they "are fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person or used in a threat". See: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf 2005/06 "firearm offences" (ALL England) = 5001 2005/06 firearm homicides (ALL England) = 50 For 2006/07: "According to provisional Home Office figures, there were 58 firearms-related homicides [ALL England] in 2006-07 compared with 49 in the previous year. That is an increase of 18% in just one year. If we include airguns, the number of homicides in 2006-07 rises to 61. There were 413 firearms incidents that resulted in serious injury - more than one a day." ----------------------------------------- Sounds like the UK media is just freaking out about nothing. ----------------------------------------- So let's see. All of England, population 50,763,000 had FEWER firearm homicides than Dallas, TX, population 1,248,223.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #15 December 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteHow many shot in Houston? "After Katrina, Houston's murder rate increased 70 percent in November and December 2005 compared to levels in 2004. The city recorded 336 murders in 2005, compared to 272 in 2004. Houston's homicide rate per 100,000 residents increased from 16.33 in 2005 to 17.24 in 2006. The number of murders in the city increased to 379 in 2006, although this increase was smaller than in 2005" From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston,_Texas#Government_and_politicsThank you for answering the question, as a number of others have noticeably failed to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #16 December 17, 2007 Quote"Many of these guns are being shipped in illegally from overseas. From where? The U.S.?"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 December 17, 2007 QuoteThe current numbers are fairly bad-ish, but when compared to what they could be if more people were armed - I shudder to think. Um, more people were armed before 1997 - that's the year when the guns were confiscated. That's when the gun shootings were three times less than they are now. So quit shuddering and face reality: guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens bears no relationship to the amount of gun crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #18 December 17, 2007 QuoteSo let's see. All of England, population 50,763,000 had FEWER firearm homicides than Dallas, TX, population 1,248,223. Yes. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #19 December 17, 2007 QuoteQuote"Many of these guns are being shipped in illegally from overseas. From where? The U.S.? I tried to find out, but got a surprise. Most aren't even guns. In the UK a "firearm" can be real guns, a blank pistol, a BB gun, a paintball gun, a deactivated gun, a flare gun, a toy gun, pepper spray, AirSoft toys, or stun guns. Only about 25% of the "firearm offences" involve real guns! Over 50% are airgun crimes! What a clusterfuck - all in order to solve a non-problem. The UK govt. is as fucked up as ours (US), and should be working on their real problems (they rank ~#5 or higher in the world for the following: Assaults, Burglaries, Car Theft, Property Crime, Rapes, Robberies, and Overall Crime Victimization. They also rank fairly low in "perception of safety" re: walking in the dark and burglary. And no, I'm not arguing that the crime problems in the UK are related to their silly gun laws. It's worthy of some thought/research however. -------------------------------------------------- Info on UK "firearms offences": ".....Of the total of 22,789 offences involving the ‘criminal use of a firearm’: 11,825 (51.8% of the total) involved air weapon firearms; 4,347 (19.1%) involved handguns, but 3,441 of these (15.1% of all offences, 79.2% of handgun offences) were ‘type unknown’; 3,333 (14.6%) involved imitation firearms; 1,462 (6.4%) involved unidentified firearms; 1,169 (5.1%) involved other firearms (including 515 CS spray weapons [and stun guns]); 598 (2.6%) involved shotguns; and 55 (>0.1%) involved rifles. In other words, at most only around one third of all of these offences involved a real non-air weapon firearm." And: "Apparent confusion regarding ‘other firearms (specified)’ that suggests further guidance is required....of the 323 ‘other firearms (specified)’ recorded by the Home Office for 2004/05.... ...of these: Two hundred and twenty-nine refer to ‘paintball guns’.... Fourteen refer to some form of ‘toy gun’.. Thirteen refer to some form of BB gun or Airsoft weapon, using descriptions such as ‘pellet gun’ or even ‘child’s pellet gun’... Seven refer to water pistols... The remaining 13 items recorded as ‘other firearm (specified)’ include: two likely handguns,...an ‘ornamental gun’;...the ‘sharp end of [a] fake blunderbuss’; one ‘ignited aerosol can spray’; one ‘flare gun’; one ‘musket type’ gun; and, one described as ‘unknown substance sprayed’...." See: http://www.port.ac.uk/departments/academic/icjs/staff/documentation/filetodownload,66240,en.pdf "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #20 December 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo let's see. All of England, population 50,763,000 had FEWER firearm homicides than Dallas, TX, population 1,248,223. Yes. Wow! To read JR's thread title you'd think London was worse than Baghdad. And all the time you're more likely to be shot dead in Dallas, Houston, or San Antonio despite London's being bigger than all of them. Have to watch those water pistols, though!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #21 December 17, 2007 Quote"Apparent confusion regarding ‘other firearms (specified)’ that suggests further guidance is required....of the 323 ‘other firearms (specified)’ recorded by the Home Office for 2004/05.... So, basically if I were to point my finger in a gun like fashion at someone and say BANG!, that would be considered a firearm? Hmmm, seems this thread is shooting imaginary pistols from the hip."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #22 December 17, 2007 JR's post was in no way dishonest though. He quoted and linked a press article that contained accurate UK govt. data. Shame on them for coming up with idiotic definitions for gun crimes. There must be a UK equivalent of the Brady/HCI whores behind it. I'm impressed with the technical creativity of the British (criminal or not) in finding ways to make guns right under the nose of their government, which has at least partially disarmed them at gunpoint. It would be nice to honestly and rationally discuss the US gun and homicide situation, but it just doesn't seem possible here in SC "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #23 December 17, 2007 QuoteSo, basically if I were to point my finger in a gun like fashion at someone and say BANG!, that would be considered a firearm? Pretty close. Here's some examples of 12/07 UK gun crimes: "Of 19 firearms recovered by police in the north of Northamptonshire between April and October five were imitation or replica guns, five were ball-bearing guns, five were air weapons, one was a toy gun and another a builder's sealant gun." "Jackie Reed was given a six-month jail term for a firearm and public order offence but was released as he had already served five and a half months on remand. Reed held a .22 air pistol in one hand and a steam iron in the other and....." "Thirty two BB guns and three crossbows were seized by police and trading standards officials for a car boot sale in Rufforth, York. The guns were described as extremely convincing replicas." "A disabled woman was arrested after a burglary at her bungalow in Epping because she kept a stun gun under her bed. A stun gun is a prohibited weapon." "Police seized 31 BB guns at a shop in Oldham, Greater Manchester, as part of a crackdown on BB and replica guns which look like genuine weapons. They hope the seizure will remind traders of legislation which makes it an offence to manufacture, import or sell realistic imitation guns." ----------------------------- "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #24 December 17, 2007 But even before 97, those guns held by people would most likely been sport tools not under the pillow defence weapons. Gun crime would not have been less pre 97 because the perps feared facing a gun from a home owner. That sort of gun ownership simply just did not exist in the U.K in anything like significant numbers so criminals would not likely have a gun pointed at them, then like now so no need for them to carry either. The majority of gun inncidents here are gun on gun (thus criminal on criminal). (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #25 December 17, 2007 QuoteBut even before 97, those guns held by people would most likely been sport tools not under the pillow defence weapons. Gun crime would not have been less pre 97 because the perps feared facing a gun from a home owner. That sort of gun ownership simply just did not exist in the U.K in anything like significant numbers so criminals would not likely have a gun pointed at them, then like now so no need for them to carry either. The majority of gun inncidents here are gun on gun (thus criminal on criminal). Any idea what all the gun crime concern is about in the UK? Could it just be the press jumping on stories? ~50 gun killings/year is very low, and based on your statistics, it doesn't seem that guns are used very often at all as a threat like in a robbery. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
